Heart Behind the Wall: Gabriela Kabatova

When Gabriela was inspired to volunteer, she never imagined herself serving behind bars. But when God prompted her heart, she ventured outside her comfort zone and into prison. Now, after 20 years of prison ministry, she shares her passion for responsibility, grace, forgiveness, reconciliation, and God’s love for all.

See full transcript below.

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Gabriela Kabatova lives in Prague, Czech Republic.

Gabriela served as a member of the Salvation Army volunteer team for prison visits (2006-10), and she is the founder and director of Prison Fellowship Czech Republic (2010-present).

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produced by Zach Van Dyke

transcription by Ryan Van Dyke

David: Welcome to With U Podcast. 

Tara: Where we explore relationships and life transitions. 

David: I'm David. 

Tara: And I'm Tara, and today we'll be talking to a really special guest. 

David: Yeah, we're fortunate to have opportunities to travel around the world and meet amazing people who are doing great work. So it's a joy to get to talk with them, but even more important, we're excited to highlight them here so you can get to know them.

Tara: Yeah, and today we're talking with Gabriela Kabatova. She's from Prague, Czech Republic, also known as Czechia, and we've gotten to know her over maybe the last ten years. 

David: Yeah, I think that's about right. 

Tara: And we're just amazed by her work, and she's been leading prison ministries for probably 20 years or so. 

David: Yeah, her stories are amazing. Not just because they focus on forgiveness, restorative justice, unconditional love, but because she's interested in creating systemic change, both in society, government, and the prisons themselves between prisoners and staff there. 

Tara: Yeah, and this is, we just want everybody to know that we think Gabriela does an amazing job talking about all of these things, but English is not her first language, so she was–

David: No, I think it's her fourth, actually.

Tara: Yeah. It always makes us feel a little behind in the language department. But we just want you to know that we're publishing a transcript of this recording as well, so if you'd like to follow along by reading, if that helps clarify anything, that will be available on our website.

Gabriela: Yes. Hello. Hello, David and Tara. So I am now in Prague. It's quite sunny here and not so cold as you spoke about your country. So thank you for inviting me. 

David: Yeah, we're really excited to have you and we were hoping you could tell us a little bit, you know, we, we gave you a brief introduction, but we want you to introduce yourself.

I mean, Tara and I met you, I think back 10 years ago, uh, in 2014, and you and Henry have been dear friends for us, but maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself, your family. 

Gabriela: Yeah, I also remembered that night very, very well 10 years ago. Henry, my husband was laughing as much as he nearly died. We had a lot of fun. So it was, it was wonderful. And so I was, I was married to Henry 43 years now. I am widow, missing him. God gave us five children. Uh, I have three boys, two girls, and I'm grandmother of four granddaughters. So it always was my big, big dream to have a nice and big family. All the children were born during communist time. My oldest son was born in ‘77 and the youngest in ‘80, uh, nine. ‘89. And, so in that time to have a big family was something like to have your own world, and not, we were not so much connected to this with the outside. So we really had a nice, nice life. And it was a little dangerous. We were part, a little, of the underground church. We were believers and we are believers, of course, and our Children are. I was a long, long time full time mom. I was not able to do profession, and to care for children, it was not in my ability and I didn't want, but formally I was social worker. I wanted to study psychology as you did, but the communists did not let me to enter the university at the time. And when the children were a little grown up, my husband, Henry, who was for a couple of years a minister for culture in the government in the first Czech government, um,after the revolt, so called revolution, when communism fell down, so he was invited to the national prayer breakfast to Washington, and we falled in love with the group of children, sorry, with the group of friends around Dako and the National Prayer Breakfast all around the world. And we also heard about prison ministry because it started, the Prison Fellowship International, started, in fact, through the National Prayer Breakfast, but it is a long story. 

David: And is that, at the National Prayer Breakfast, is that where you met Chuck Colson? 

Gabriela: Um, to be honest, I only wrote letters. I have exchanged letters with him. I am really very, very sorry, but I could not meet him. He was in touch with us and the prison ministry of the Czech Republic became part of the Prison Fellowship International in 2011 when he was still alive. So some connection there was, but I have not met him in my life. 

David: But, but you had correspondence with him and he kind of influenced you and your ministry, yeah? 

Gabriela: Yes, of course. He and his friends in Europe, they were traveling here and they influenced us a lot. So this is something about me for the last, uh, 13 years, I started and leave the prison ministry, Czech Republic, and now I live alone in Prague, but I'm not lonely. So I have a blessed life. 

Tara: Yeah. So tell us what got you involved with prison ministry to begin with. What drew you to it and what led you into this? 

Gabriela: It is quite a strange story because I never loved, uh, prisons and I think nobody can love prisons.

It is such a dark and powerful place. And what happened to me, we spent with my husband one year in United States in 2004 and five, and, um, I saw that all Americans are volunteers. It's not to be a volunteer. It's something probably very unusual in your country. In my eyes, I, of course, don't know if it is true. But I was thinking about volunteering, but absolutely not about volunteering in prison. And then we returned back home to the Czech Republic and suddenly the same year I knew that God called me into prison. But imagine that it took me all one year praying to God, "please, um, no."

And I wasn't ready to tell it to my husband who was a psychologist and I could imagine him telling me, "okay, uh, it's your age. It will be, it will be fine out after, I don't know, some, some years. Don't take it seriously." So I was silent for one year and in 2006 I met with my friend Kelly Prudek, an American missionary in Prague.

We were praying for families and so, and I told Kelly, “I think I got crazy because I have such a strong calling to go to prison.” And Kelly told me, "Oh, Gabriela, you are absolutely not crazy. I am visiting here in Czech Republic prisons on a regular basis, Salvation Army. And this is Wednesday. Today is Wednesday. And next Wednesday, Wednesday, you can go with me." So it was so fast, and she was visiting women's prison. So I came home and told Henry, “for a while, one year I'm fighting with this idea and God's calling, what do you think about it?” And he said, "it's wonderful, go there." So my fear was very stupid and he was happy about it, at least in the beginnings when he didn't know that I would be so consumed and he will not have warm dinners. In the beginning he was, he was happy about it. 

David: Yeah, and it's probably was really,

Gabriela: It was not, oh, sorry.

David: It was probably really helpful for you that he was so supportive that he encouraged you in your passion.

Gabriela: Yes, definitely, because it would be very, very hard for me to be without his support. And, you know, in this beginning I was visiting for a longer time women's prison. After four years after this, I started the Czech branch of prison fellowship, Czech Republic, and I still was visiting only women's prison. And I think after next year, I asked Henry to go with me to two meetings with a big group of incarcerated men. And I wanted him to watch the reaction of men and my reactions and how it goes together and if it's good for me if I go to men's prison. And he returned back home and he said, "it was, it was really good."I didn't know with whom I lived. So it's, it's my story that he also agreed with this. So the ministry could continue because we were used to work together, especially in the movement of the National Prayer Breakfast. So we worked almost like partners, like the two of you now. 

Tara: Yeah. And Gabriela, can I ask what, when you first visited the women's prisons and then when you visited this big group of men, what did you do? What did you talk about? How did that, how did that look? 

Gabriela: You know, in the beginning, it was wonderful. I saw how God prepares everything, you know, because in the beginning, I, on the first visit, I just watched the group of women and visit Salvation Army with a guy, a leader who was from England and he needed translation. And the translators somehow did not come, so I could work the first year as his interpreter. So he preached inside the prison and I interpreted in a quite funny way because I was using words, different words, different vocabulary to be closer to these women, which was, which was pretty crazy. They more need something very nice and not to try to be like, uh, their vocabulary anyway. And later on we created, after Prison Fellowship, Czech Republic started, we created our own program, first program. Now we are about 20, but the first one was preparation for release. And we learned from the ex offenders, what do they need when, when they are, let's say, five months before leaving prison, what are their fears? What are the dangers in their life? If they have problems with family or their own, bad behavior or alcohol, drugs and so on. So we do individual plans and we go to prisons always as a team. In this program we have musicians there. We are, we work on Christian base, of course, and on a restorative justice base.

And we just ask very practically, “what do you need, brother or sister? What do you need? We are here for you and we really like you,” and such things. So it's very personal and we have many, many friends in prisons because they are looking forward to this normal approach. We are not coming as authorities but on a peer base. Like, you go to visit friends, so you'll have to take something to eat with them if the prison allows it and drinks with them and to be together and to bring the normal life. It is the most valuable, and of course to bring the love of God, but it already is there as well in the hearts of all the people.

Tara: Yeah. What would you say are some of their top fears before they leave prison? I imagine that's a big transition going back into life outside. 

Gabriela: Yeah. You know, sometimes it is called as a worse punishment than the sentence itself, you know, because when you go inside prison it's horrible, but you know, you will have your bed and three times a day a food. When you go out, you don't know this and you can become homeless. You, you can be threatened in many ways. The family can say, we don't want to see you anymore. And, yeah, I think that only few countries in the world have a good aftercare because usually the aftercare, how it works in the countries, It's not enough what the people need. Suddenly they are without money. They can't find work immediately. They don't have where to stay. It is like of houses on halfway or something like that. So it is a really critical situation and without help of either family or nonprofit organization or church, they have no chance, chance to be successful.

David: Gabriela, do you, do you partner with churches? So thinking about that transition. So they have these fears of, "well, at least in prison, I know where I'm sleeping. I know what food I'm getting when I get out." There's all that fear. Do you, in the friendship that you go in and kind of five months help prepare them, do you partner with churches? How do you resource them when they leave the prison? 

Gabriela: Uh, yes, we partner with churches and, you know, all our either employees or volunteers, we have, we have about 25 employees, some are part time and we have about 400 volunteers and each one of them is part of some church.

We work ecumenically, Christian ecumenically, and it means that also some of the churches support us and especially one, one church in the north is giving us, every year, a quite huge amount of money. I can't now count it in dollars, excuse me. And it is exactly, and only, for those who are released and we can pay them food and accommodation and, I don't know, whatever they need health care in the beginning, mainly for the first week. And then, they go to curator and social workers and the process starts, but, but the first few days are crucial and, we are, we accompany the clients, we go very often into prison and take them by car where they need. And we spend very intensively, the first week or weeks if they, if they need with them. And it means that they do not rely to their own criminal subculture, because if you get out of prison, you take a tram, you go, let's say, to the main street, the main station in, in Prague, and, and then you don't know. So somebody gives you either drugs or alcohol, and you're back where you were. So the support of the church is wonderful. And we have support also from just nice people who hear about it. 

Tara: That's amazing. It takes a lot of people, doesn't it? And it sounds like you've got a lot of You've built up quite a team. 

Gabriela: Yes, but as I told we have 20 different programs. And to find a volunteer to be a mentor, for a prisoner or released person, it's not so easy because no, not too many people want to do this, this work. It's easier to, excuse me an example, but to take care of cats or dogs because they are so, so nice. Our clients can be a bit dangerous or impatient or you know, but whatever. So we have more volunteers for the children's programs. We do a lot of children's programs, meaning children of prisoners and many people have heart for, for children. But, um, the number of volunteers for the work with prisoners, with offenders and so on, it's lower.

David: Yeah. The need, the need that you have for people to volunteer, is a huge challenge. You're, you're amazing in your faithfulness to kind of keep, keep striving and trust that people will show up. Are there other challenges that you've experienced over almost 20 years of doing this? 

Gabriela: You know, with the clients, you know, it's, it's, I think we, we do not have challenge because many of them, even though they used to be dangerous, they are very grateful for help.

We run a club for ex prisoners in Prague and those people, some of them that are murderers or really dangerous. We are giving help to them, we are, we are not punishing them and so on. So we can be friends. What is more challenging is fundraising, for example, because we must have many, many different resources. You never know which resource will not work next year. So we must try all possible foundations, et cetera. So it is, it is demanding and challenging, and you always want to do a little more because you'll see the needs and the possibilities that it works when you, when you help the people and the family and the children. So you want to do more, but especially the beginning of each year. Like where we are now, so you never know what will be in December, and I think this is, this is the challenge of all nonprofits. If you are employed, I don't know, in your Congress, or I don't know where, you, you can plan something, you can. But, anyway, thanks to Lord, we have never had to stop a program or to, to do less work. And I heard once that money follow ministry. So I trust it fully and I say, God, this must work. 

Tara: Yeah, Gabriela, we, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there. We just are very interested too in hearing more about what you do to support families of people who are incarcerated. We know that you have a deep heart for the fact that it's not just the prisoner who is being punished, but all the people who love that person and and often their Children. And we know that you run a program that takes care of the families as well. Could you tell us some more about that? 

Gabriela: Mm.

Yeah, we have mainly many programs for the Children and the first one we started is Angel Tree program. I don't know if you have heard about it, but usually when foreigners come to Czech Republic and hear Angel Tree programs, they say, "yes, you know, it was started in England and we heard about it." So for example, this year we sent more than 2,000 gifts to children. And imagine that every gift must be discussed with the prisoner. We must have a written contract with him. We must call to each family and ask what is the wish of the child. So imagine how many people must be involved to call to more than 2,000 families and so on. And through this program, we can work, because we received the data, the addresses and age of children, name, names of children, and we can use it for our other projects. So we can invite the children to come to Angel Camps, in summer. We can invite them to Dream Academy. It is a program for teen age girls that we are helping them to choose their vocation, their jobs, or I have to say, and to identify their talents. And then we have clubs for small children, et cetera, et cetera. And through these programs, we get to families. So we have self supporting groups of those who care for children of prisoners. And usually there are mothers, partners, grandmothers, aunts, you know, we cooperate also with the orphanage houses.

So it is, it is a bit sad part of the world because you see so, so many problems and you can't solve all the problems because they, these people are economically down because one salary of the father usually is missing. So imagine that if a woman who is young and have children, if the, uh, is a widow, so the state gives her immediately support. So the widow doesn't go economically down so much. But if the partner or husband is incarcerated, there is no help from, from the state– or a minimal help. So the family can lose housing and they don't have, have money for some sorts of schools or how to, how to have money for children to spend time well, and so on. So they need also help from food banks, if you, if you know it. Yeah, um, the problems are too many, and we need to, to cooperate with, with many different organizations because it's not possible to cover, the needs, especially for the housing and food, you know, it's terrible. 

David: Yeah, it's, it's amazing as you're talking, I think about your initial training as a social worker and how then you had a break for a little bit raising a family, but you're using all those skills now in your, in your ministry and in your professional life.

Gabriela: Yes, I think that it shows when I look back that God always equips us with all the skills we need one day, you know, and it's like confirmation also for me that. It was prepared long time ago. I don't know when, but knew sooner. 

David: Yeah. It's, isn't that remarkable of things that we think, well, we did that, we don't know why, then years, decades later those, those opportunities, those skills, those trainings can be used for amazingly good purposes. 

Gabriela: Yes, that's, that's absolutely true. 

David: One of the, one of the things, I have so many, so many stories I want you to tell, but one of the, one of the things I'm amazed at is how you think about the, the prisoners of, they're incarcerated because of a consequence of their behavior choice, addiction, but you're mindful of, you don't want the family relationships, the kids relationships with their dads to suffer. And I wonder if you can tell some stories of how you continue to strengthen the family relationships while people are incarcerated. 

Gabriela: Usually when we speak with, with prisoners and we want to learn more about them, so we hear that they had some big, big troubles in their childhood. They were either abused or tortured or something happened. Exceptions are young people who are on drugs because they can be from very nice families, but they tried drugs at high school, or I don't know when, and then this, this everything, this everything happened.

I don't know if I understand very well your question. 

David: Yeah, no problem. Like family days at the prison when you do the events to have the, and picnics when you have the prisoners and their kids and, and spouses being able to spend time together. 

Gabriela: Okay, yes, this is what thank you for, for a question.

This is one of the biggest joys I can be experiencing. You know, we, in our country, the law permits for families to be together three hours a month. Imagine only three hours a month. So how to be a parent when you do not spend with your child even two days in a year, it's really low. I once watched one, one American short video from prison and I saw something like Father's Day, and the fathers were dressed in, in the same t-shirt, the prisoners and their children, and they play probably basketball, I think. And I said, "okay, this would be wonderful." And we created a program called “Day With My Child.” And we invite all of us 12 fathers who are incarcerated and their families and we do it in some nice space near to prison in a garden or something like that. And we dress the fathers in the same clothes as the children and they can be together eight or ten hours, all the day. And imagine that some of the fathers see their child first time. And it's emotionally really very strong, you know, and sometimes it is a newborn baby, which is understandable, but sometimes it can be four years old child, but the family didn't want to bring the child inside prison, not to disturb him and so on.

So to see such possibilities and to see the prisoners, how they behave very differently and how they are happy and children are happy. And so, you know, it's really amazing. And this is also a way not only to help tens of families, but it is a way how to show the society that the prisoners are parents, that they have relationships, that of course, they did something very, very wrong, but it doesn't mean that they are not human beings.

So we laugh when television comes and it always comes and it is in the news and pictures are in other medias. It's full of colors because of the nice t-shirts and a lot of hugs and so on. And then we speak with the fathers when it's finished this. So I don't know, a couple of months later, we speak with them and ask “what it brought to your life. What's changed?” And they say, "oh, they started to come to regular visits," or "we have now more fun when we meet," or "we can solve some problem of a family because we speak with with those who care for the children." So it is not a systemic change, but it is a step to systemic change. 

David: Yeah, I would say…

Gabriela: How to strengthen the rights of the children. Unfortunately there is a recommendation of the ministers of Europe of, uh, European countries to really pay more attention to the rights of children because now everything is concentrated to punish somebody, but the children are victims, invisible victims of this crime as well.

According to some new laws, the children should be at the top, like a top priority, what it is doing with the child of the prisoner. How it influences his life or her life because it can be damaged very quickly by the loss of, of the parents and the families are divorced and the father is criminal. So the child is stigmatized and hated at school. And, you know, sometimes some professionals compare when children experiences the death of the, of the father or mother. So he is cared very much by the surrounding, by neighbors. Everybody come and offer help and they spoil him a bit, and they are very, everybody is very sorry for such a child. Sorry for my English, but when the father disappears for 10 years into prison, so there is no compassion, there is no care, but punishment because he is or she is the child of a criminal.

David: Yeah, it's, it's hard to see and hear that death is almost easier than incarceration for the kids. The death of a parent, uh, there's more social support than there is. If the parents incarcerated one of the, I do think you're making systemic change though, Gabriella, I think that you're breaking some of the cycles.

You talked earlier that some of the prisoners had bad childhood backgrounds, there was trauma that happened. You're trying to prevent the generation, uh, next of their kids to continuing that path. And so I think there is a systemic part that you're breaking patterns and it's quite, quite moving and quite powerful.

Gabriela: Yeah, fortunately I, I'm happy. You are right because imagine when we started with the Angel Tree for the first time, and it was in this big women's prison which I was visiting. And so we gave the first 100 gifts. And when the employees of prison heard about it they complained and they were unhappy nearly upset and they thought, okay, but we have also children and who gives something to our children. So we quickly bought another 100 gifts to the employees of this prison. I remember it were, uh, Bibles for children with nice illustrations and we gave it to them. But during the years, this changed, and now the employees from many prisons, we have 35 prisons in the Republic, and most of the prisons are part of this program. And they love it, and they are helping us, and we work together. So something is really changing every year. Or we can see it on, on the net, on Facebook and Instagram, that there are comments, you know, and the comments can be terrible, but every year it's a little better. 

Tara: That's, that's a great way to look at it. That's an amazing thing I'd never thought of, that you're, you're helping even the prison staff to see the prisoners as human and as family members. 

Gabriela: Exactly, and from the very beginning, we learned this from the Prison Fellowship International, and I trust it was the idea of Chuck Colson that some organizations care for inmates, some care for prisoners, and so on, some for children. But, but Chuck Colson put everything together and he included also the staff of the prisons because those who work there, they are also incarcerated in some way. They are spending their life inside and it is very dangerous for them. They can be attacked in any moment. And, it's not easy. So we, we are creating also some programs and meetings, especially, and something for children for the prison staff. And we are working on close friendship with the prison directors because we learn from them. And they can also learn from, from the philosophy how to deal with this prisoner in a little different way.

David: I think that is beautiful. There's one, there's, you have 20 different projects that your ministry does. We can't talk about all of them, but one that really kind of has moved me is the one around forgiveness and reconciliation, where you have the person that's incarcerated. You have a program where incarcerated people talk with people that have been, uh, victimized to understand each other's experiences.

Could you tell us a little bit about that one? Cause that last time you told me that I started to tear up. Um, it's an amazing, amazing program. 

Gabriela: I am happy you like it because I like it very much. It's my favorite one. And now also my son's, Martin, because he became one of the facilitators and will lead one of this program. So I love it as much. 

So, um, it is a restorative justice program and restorative justice puts the needs of victim in the first place. Now, when you look at the justice, the main is who did the crime and how he will be punished. So let him punished and so on. But the victim is somewhere, but not in the head of the criminal. He thinks about himself, and he often can see himself as a victim because he, you know, all these strategies in mind, how to, how to say I am innocent and so on. And therefore we, we put, and we learned this also at Prison Fellowship International, Dan Van Ness is the author of this, of this wonderful program. We put together a group of six prisoners and six victims, of non related crimes. They never, they do not know themselves. And the program is run for, all of us, eight weeks, they meet once a week for two, three hours, depending on possibilities of the prison and they shared their stories in the beginning.

We speak about Zacchaeus' story because Zacchaeus is such an example. I don't know if I pronounce well the name Zacchaeus from Bible. 

David: Oh yeah. Zacchaeus.

Gabriela: Okay. Thank you. 

Tara: We'll have to make sure 

David: We'll double check on that.

Gabriela: And he gave back to his victims twice and all four times more than he's told and half of his property. After meeting Jesus, he gave to the poor as a charity gift. So it is an example of a criminal who recognized his own sin and behave differently. So on the first meeting, we speak with the prisoners and with the victims, why he behaved this way, what made him to change, how the victims felt when they heard that he gave so much money back, if they trusted him and so on. And from the second meeting, we speak on different subjects like forgiveness, but everybody is sharing his or her story, either what happened to a victim, who did the crime against her or him and what the prisoner. And the only condition is to tell true. They don't need to, to tell every detail, it's, it would be very difficult, but not to lie. We ask them really don't lie. If you, if you are scared so, be silent. So this, this group shares and, from the I think third meeting, they started to be related in a very special way. The group dynamics. And we, I do this program from 2015 so it's quite a long time and all of us has been successful, and they understood the feelings of each other. And it, uh, there never has been a confrontation or enmity or enmity or something unpleasant, but they have very, um, how to say very, hmm. The emotions are on the both sides, and they can understand each other very well. And when a victim tells a story, so even the guys in prison, they, they cry many times because it reminds them of their own victim. And this is what we want. 

Tara: Gabriela, Can I just ask a question really quick?

Because this is what I wondered when I first heard about this program. So this is not the prisoner and their own person that they committed the crime against, but this is a group of prisoners and other victims of crimes. They're hearing stories that they're not directly across from the person that they offended, but they're hearing other people's stories that reminds them of the effects that they might have had on somebody.

Gabriela: Yes, exactly. They are non related. I don't know if it is the right word. They, before it, they never, never seen each other, they absolutely don't know about themselves. 

David: Yeah. And that makes it, that makes it safer to actually have the conversation that I think builds empathy, right? They can start to feel maybe what the other person felt.

Gabriela: It is a little easier, of course, that we recommend the participants to have a mediation, real mediation, with their own victim or own, um, prisoner, but this is more safe as you say, this is less painful, but it helps the victims to lose some sort of fear, because they, if you don't know something, you imagine it even worse.

So in their eyes the offender is somebody big and very strong and very ugly and so on, and suddenly they come to the prison and the prisoners are afraid and they behave like small boys who are expecting that somebody would, would be very upset to them. And it's not happening. 

Tara: So it's a human to human connection and I think what's really just amazing about this and, and kind of heartbreaking and hopeful is the power of forgiveness. I think is that the root of all of this and forgiveness is a thing that I think everybody struggles with. And in this situation, you're highlighting the power of human to human connection and how forgiveness can change the whole situation. Can you tell us more about that? 

Gabriela: Yes, definitely. When you, when you are in prison you are losing part of your humanity, you do not think that you are worth anything, that you are, you are also dressed in something gray and you are losing your personality. And imagine that in that moment come a group of victims and they encourage them and they say, okay, you did something terrible, but we trust it was the last time, and we trust you, you are such a great person. And they have really good attitudes toward each other. And the prisoners start to bring gifts and prepare coffees and teas for, for the group or some food and so on. And they behave like friends. And it helps the prisoners to be sorry for what they done because suddenly it is spoken about in a nice way and in a surrounding that is peaceful and safe and they are accepted.

And so the most important is that somebody is listening, and it's important for the victims and for the offenders, because suddenly somebody spends time and is very much interested, so "why have you done it, why, what happened in your life, what was your childhood, and how is now your family?" And on, on the opposite, the prisoners asked the victim, "so how did you, how did you feel, and what can help you now?" So it's very, very powerful. And also whether the victim would be, as you said, it would be wonderful to, to forgive and, um, but it needs also a healing. It's not possible to say "forgive." Especially if this is dangerous, for Christians, because we all know that God wants us to forgive, but when you are really very much hurt, you are very much sad, you are in trauma, it can be very dangerous to tell, "but you have to forgive, you are a Christian." Don't forget it will be another trauma for the person, so it must be very sensitive. And we always say to the victims that they need to take time.

It is a decision. "I want to forgive," but, um, nobody knows how long time it will come from the mind to the heart. 

David: I think that's such an important part of the process. It's not just doing the action, but the process, the healing process to get to the point of a heart forgiveness type of thing. One, one last thing I wanted to ask you, I know we, uh, we've talked for a while.

Are you still having the people sing in the Czech Senate? So back in 2018, I think it was, uh, we were able to be your guests in the political center of the Czech Republic in the Senate. And you had prisoners leading worship and sharing testimonies in, in the Senate, and it was an amazing opportunity. I'm curious of a little bit about that for our listeners, and is that still going on? 

Gabriela: Yes, it's, it has been still going on. I, I even don't remember for how many years we have been meeting there. And for me, it means a lot because, um, usually we have also top politicians, like former candidate for, for president and many senators and so on.

So it's wonderful that these people meet and they listen to, as you said, to prisoners. And last year, uh, they listened to children of prisoners and it was moving, uh, very much. We don't want to be only moved, not, it is not only emotions and then not to, to stop helping. But in the Senate, it's not bad when people are moved because it supports some, some action, of course. And we had a good musician and his, and his group, um, they were about four, four, and they prepared a special song of children. They wrote it on the base of the text that children of prisoners wrote at the Angel Camp. And they, they use it and an amazing song was performed first time in the Senate and was very, very successful, uh, four children sang it. And now we have a clip with these children and with these guys. Wonderful. And we have it also with English subtitles. So I think our people send it to you so you can hear it. 

Tara: So if people would like to hear it and see it, we will link it to the show notes in this podcast. 

David: Gabriela, I think it's one of the things I love about the Senate piece is it kind of comes full circle with Henry being a minister of culture and minister of the interior in the first, uh, kind of free government, uh, post the revolution, um, you're continuing to speak into powerful places like he did in the eighties and nineties.

Uh, you're continuing that legacy. And, uh, it's, it's really beautiful to see. 

Gabriela: I have been very much influenced by, by the co and, um, in the beginning, I said that the national prayer breakfast. Um, is connected to this prison fellowship international and, uh, in fact, when Chuck Colson returned from prison, if, if I say it well, exactly, um, he was invited in to national prayer breakfast.

And in that time he was not popular at all. Um, but. He experiences unconditional love on himself. And I think this is what I love on such meetings, that there are different people, really, in high positions, and people who have no credits or are somehow punished by the society, or are even prisoners, but they can be together as brothers and sisters.

And also the National Prayer Breakfast, uh, they, the, the leaders of different nations, they, they meet to work for the poor and hungry in the world. And it makes a big, big sense for me. It is normal for churches, but it is not normal for politicians and very wealthy people and, uh, yeah, 

Tara: That's amazing.

We, we have a lot to think about now and we're always amazed by your work and this last story about people in the highest places meeting with the people in the lowest places and focusing on unconditional love, it's it's really beautiful and that's the common bond in all the work that you're doing. 

David: So we're, we're so thankful you were able to take a little time out of your, your busy ministry and the work that you're doing to spend some time talking with us. And we're thankful. 

Gabriela: Thank you very much. I'm grateful. Hope you survived my English. So thank you for patience with me when looking forward. 

David: It was, it was great, Gabriela. Your English was fine. People will love hearing your heart. It comes through so there's, there's no need. You'll be fully understood.

Gabriela: Thank you very much. I hope God understands me at least. 

David: Yes. 

Tara: He always does.