[Marriage Story] Rodica & Liviu
Scroll to the bottom of this page for a full transcription of the episode.
Rodica & Liviu Mocan
Wedding Date: January 13, 1985
Children:
Emma, 37 - married to Bogdan
Paul Anghel, 35 - married to Ligia
David Timothy 25 - married to Anca
Grandchildren: Four!
Top Tips for Building a Strong Marriage:
Rodica:
Do not take yourself too seriously.
Do not try to be everything for your spouse. It will never be enough anyway.
Prepare for a marathon, not a sprint.
Liviu:
When you really want to build, you give, not wait to receive.
Marriage is God's invention, so it is wonderful. This does not mean that it's easy...
Rodica and Liviu reside in Cluj-Napoca, Romania.
Rodica is a professor of digital media, and Liviu is a sculptor.
You can learn more about Liviu’s work on his website: https://www.liviumocan.ro/ and on his Facebook page.
Rodica & Liviu on their wedding day in Romania, January 1985
Wedding guests in the snow
Wedding day temperature -22 C.
Rodica & Liviu’s civil marriage Jan 1985
the growing Mocan family
anniversary 2018
summer 2022
Liviu & Rodica visit the Van Dyke home in 2021 following the art installation at Wheaton College
We’d love to hear from you! Please reach out to David and Tara at withupodcast@gmail.com
Produced by Zach Van Dyke
Transcribed by Ryan Van Dyke
Transcription
Rodica: Even when we were in a fight and we, you know, we were cross at each other, if I called him, he always was very nice on the phone.
Tara: Well, I think we should get started officially, so we're just gonna ask you to start by, um, introducing yourselves.
And then we'll start asking questions about your relationship life, which will be the most fun.
David: Can you kind of give us a little overview of who you are, where you are, uh, what you do?
Liviu: Dear, you are the first, please.
Rodica: Yes. I think the last question is much, uh, more easy than who I am.
Tara: Yes.
Rodica: What you to say, to start by saying what I do. Um, I'm a mother of three living in Romania, this, uh, country in Eastern Europe very close to the more known Ukraine.
Yes, I see your, uh, Cluj-Napoca mug, and, um, I've been married 20, 30, 38 years with Liviu. Uh, our children are grown up, are, married, and we have four grandchildren, so we are probably one of your most senior couples to, to say that. Um, I also teach at the university, I'm a professor of digital media and, um, I could fill a book with a story of how I got there, but, uh, that's, and, and that part of the marriage, so probably we'll get to talk about that as well.
Yeah. But, uh, pretty much that's, that's what it is.
Tara: Excellent. And what about, yeah, well that's a small part of who you are, but that, that's a good start.
Rodica: It's okay.
Tara: And Liviu, what about you?
Liviu: Um, may I, uh, give you a poem?
David: We would love a poem.
Liviu: In fact, this kind of poem is, um, one of my ways to define myself. So,
I am happy to be a sculptor.
The whole universe is a gallery with sculptures.
I start working when my hands deepen in soft clay .
When my hands touch the marble or the granite or the wood, I meet God's hands.
God's hands are there waiting for me. I feel them.
This is how, touching him, I understand day by day how inadequate I am.
I am a sculptor, but much, much more than that.
I am a sculpture.
My name is one that was given to me: Liviu Mocan.
Tara: Excellent.
David: That is beautiful.
Tara: Thank you
David: That encapsulates so much of who you are, uh, both a sculptor and a sculpture
Tara: Well, and, and Rodica already shared the things that you share with her the same number of years, married, the same number of children and the same number of grandchildren, right?
Liviu: I, as much as I remember, it's true.
Tara: Yes. We-
Liviu: My only wife.
Tara: So yeah, it stands to reason you share those things. We are so glad that you took the time to talk with us from so far away So we, we would like to start just by hearing your story. We know, we've known the two of you only in this part of your life, this, you know, after having been married this number of years.
So we'd love to hear how this started. So how you two met and how you decided to, to spend a lifetime together.
Rodica: Yeah. Well we can, we can tell the story in many, uh, in many ways. Since I teach digital media, my story would probably not be a linear one, but like an another one that can go in all kind of directions and probably that's how our, our discussion is going to be. But because there needs to be a beginning, I met Liviu within the context of our, uh, church.
We are both, Christian. We both, uh, grew up in, devoted, uh, Christian families, so practicing, uh, Christians. And you should know the time, the time was during communism and our story is pretty much, you know, like the world eras, um, split into the before and after. So you will hear us often talking about before the revolution and after the revolution, because the, the revolution from 1980, 1989 has really had a great impact on our lives.
And it, it really was a change of paradigm. So we met before that in the early '80s, and, uh, at that time the communities were really very tied together because church community was also a way of survival. Um, it was also a place where you found meaning, and it was also a place where we would evade from the reality.
And I remember at that time we had that strong feeling that yes, we are citizens of Romania, but more than that we are citizens of the kingdom of God and, um, you know, now on earth and then on heaven. So, uh, somehow we had this, uh, this kind of split life. And especially within the circle of our friends, we were involved with, um, navigator missionaries who, uh, were teaching us, um, giving us resources that we couldn't find at that time, and really helped us to develop. So we met within that context that was pretty much underground.
David: Hmm.
Rodica: So this is also a story with, uh, meeting at the, uh, different places and, uh, um, bringing in our friends so that the neighbors don't see them and, uh, um,
David: Can you-
Rodica: it was very interesting. It was very interesting to know each other within that
context.
David: Can you tell a little bit about that? It's hard to comprehend that you had to sneak people into your house. So, uh, I think for people listening, especially anybody that has been born after 1989, uh, the context that you're talking about was there was a lot of suppression of, uh, ability to live freely and, uh, and to be able to make your own choices and not worry about your neighbors, or not worry about authority.
Uh, can you paint us a little picture?
Rodica: We were, we were pretty much, uh, um, aware at all times that there were, uh, snitches, we call them everywhere. So people were made, sometimes forced, sometimes tempted, sometimes by their own willing they were, um, snitching on each other and spying on each other. Uh, I, I'll just give you an example.
If you had a small demeanor, you know, an accident or something, uh, they would, uh, keep you there, and they would say, if you become a collaborator, then I can arrange so that you do not have to go to jail for, I don't know, you killed someone in an accident or, um, you had a, another type of problem. So those people would turn and become then the collaborators that would, uh, uh, spy on you.
Now, one of the things that the communist government was very much, uh, uh, trying to control is all the influence that comes from the outside. So, uh, there were very strict rules. Um, we were not allowed to host, in our houses, foreigners. Um, if you were our guest, you could not sleep in our house. We would have to put, you know, you would have to take a hotel.
Um, so very often our friends that, uh, foreigners that came in, they started to dress like us and, uh, um, wear handmade sweaters and, uh, have a plastic bag with them or something so that they don't look suspicious. And, uh, then we would have friends from, uh, from other parts of the country and we would gather in one home.
Um, I'm talking about like, 90 square meter, uh, three room, apartment, and we would be probably six or eight couples sleeping there for three days and, uh, having Bible study all day long. Uh, and, you know, we would take turns who sleeps in bed and who sleeps on the floor.
Tara: Wow.
Rodica: Stuff like that. Uh, now, now that we look back, you know, we can hardly believe it was true, but, um, there were some great times, you know, like the best of times and the worst of times.
Tara: Yeah.
Liviu: Talking about this, sleeping on the floor and, uh, sleeping in the bed at this kind of meetings, because we are talking now about marriage, uh, our, our group met once in another town than Cluj and Rodica and myself were, uh,
Rodica: Newly weds.
Liviu: Yeah.
Recently.
Rodica: We were just married.
Liviu: And in that poor apartment in the city of Iași, it, it was, uh, one room, one bedroom, and then a, a living room.
So our friends, um, said that Rodica and Liviu will go alone in that room and all of us will sleep on the floor in any room.
Rodica: We were the youngest, you know, we were the youngest, just married, and they said, well, you get the bedroom and we're gonna sleep on the floor, and I felt so embarrassed, you know? And then after, uh, a day, like, you know, you get up from the, from a bed and everybody is picking up his, uh, mattress and everything.
Then our friends, after about a day and a half, said, now get out for half an hour. Then I turned white.
So yeah, it was fun. But that was a context where, where, uh, where we met and, uh, um, yeah, in a way, now that we look back, we find that it was complicated. But when you are in that situation, you know, and I sometimes when I talk about those times, I say, you should know that we were happy. We knew how to have fun.
We knew how to, I don't know. You know, the, the, the, the ration that we had at that time was about one kilo of meat per month, per person.
David: Hmm.
Tara: Wow.
Rodica: One litter of oil and one kilo of sugar per month, per person. So when we had meetings like this, we would save food, uh, you know, for a month or two, and then we would have a piece and we would enjoy it.
And, uh, and now we, with all this, uh, uh, uh, pandemic and all the scare that there was gonna be scarcity of food and everything, we were like, huh, we've been there, done that. It will not be that bad, you know? I mean, you can cook from anything. I can feed eight people with two eggs and some potatoes, you know. So, um, uh, yeah, you've learned to do lots of things and it, it was fun and we had to be creative and yeah, I think it was fun, wasn't it, Liviu?
Liviu: Extremely fun. I, I, uh, I really, um, under the pressure of communism, we experienced God more than we experienced him, uh, now in so-called democracy. There he interfere in a very direct way, uh, in our lives, uh, about, uh, everything, food, clothes, uh, it was wonderful. Communism, was not good, but our lives with God was wonderful.
Absolutely wonderful.
Rodica: In, in, in hard times, you have to depend on God.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: So probably the, the, the good lesson, if I look now in retrospect, but if I look at our children, you know, I'm thinking that when we started our life, we were at the point where we were completely dependent on God and we knew that.
And then time change and God helped us to be on our own feet. And obviously now we are also dependent on him, but in different ways. While the younger generations now, they do not have that idea that if time goes bad, you can depend on God and he's going to take care. So I think the panic and the scare around things like the war, which is at our door or um, uh, the pandemic or, you know, other situation, earthquakes or whatever could happen, you know, um, the younger generation does not have the resilience that we developed at that time.
David: That resilience really comes from that dependency on God and not being kind of our own God. The, the danger I think Liviu you that you're speaking about democracy, but just kind of resources and self-sufficiency, we, we do it ourselves and there isn't this need of resilience. The resilience is, I can figure out a way of doing it myself, not that I need to see the miraculous interruption from God.
Rodica: Yeah. Yeah.
Liviu: Today, I, uh, I understood something wonderful, uh, in my quiet time about the Lord Jesus Christ being tempted after he was baptized. Uh, it's incredible. The destiny of the Lord had so much to do with the history of, uh, the Hebrew people. Uh, he, uh, the Lord was, uh, baptized in Jordan, and the Israelis got in the Holy land through Jordan.
And then in the desert, they were, they were tempted for 40 years and Jesus was tempted for 40 days in the desert. Now why I mentioned that is because under the communism, we were in a kind of desert. But there the miracles of God, uh, are, are, uh, daily, uh, in, in interference of God with, with us.
Because in the desert where they are, no banks to give you as much as you want immediately, uh, uh, they are not, uh, uh, medical clinics, and you, you go immediately if you are ill, you depend in the desert, you die or God will do something for you.
Tara: Yes.
Liviu: So from this point of view, communism as a desert, uh, was, uh, was splendid as the desert for Jesus Christ was splendid because there he, he had those needs of bread and, and water and the temptation, uh, came on him as they came to the people of Israel in the desert and as they came, uh, to us under the communism.
Tara: Yeah. It really helps to hear that context of how you started to relate to each other, and it sounds like one of the benefits of that desert was that you found such a tight-knit community of believers that you, that you could trust.
Rodica: Definitely.
Tara: Yes,
Rodica: Definitely.
Tara: And you were in that together. Had you, had you grown up in this same community together, or how, how old were you when you started to,
Rodica: in the same town, but not the same church. But there were cross communities between churches. So we, we, we knew about each other through, uh, various friends.
And then, um, I remember there was a, a wedding of a common friend, and then he, uh, he said the poem in the, in the church. And I remember looking and said, ah, so this is Liviu Mocan.
Tara: Hmm. So, you know, the first time you,
Rodica: That's how I saw him for the first time.
Tara: You noticed him when he was reciting a poem at a wedding?
Rodica: Yes. But, but you know, I told, I told him, don't try to recite to me cause I'm an engineer and I'm not, not the type.
Tara: I'm not the poetry type
Rodica: Don't take your chance on me .
David: So Liviu you what, when
Rodica: We have a, we have a joke about that. We have a joke, but I'm jumping a little bit. Uh, after we, we came back from the states in the nineties, he worked for a whole year, uh, on writing, uh, poetry.
So, um, it was the early nineties we had a computer and he said, honey, would you, would you print my, uh, my poems? Uh, so I typed them all and I typed them nicely and I gave them to him, you know. By that time I just came back from the states where I got a, an art degree, me being an engineer. So I give him the, the, the poem booklet and he says, so what do you think?
So I said, honey, I got an art degree so that I can understand your art. I hope if you don't expect me to take literature to understand your poem.
Just to understand your poem. So then he left it.
Tara: Yeah, that's a lot of work.
Liviu: And this is why I don't write poetry anymore.
Rodica: You do, you do. And he, he, he write poems about me. And then he's reading them to me. Not many, but he came and grabbed me a poem and I started crying and I said, that's why I don't wanna listen to poetry or poems.
Tara: Don't wanna get emotional.
David: It goes, it goes to the heart, it bypasses the mind of the engineering goes to her heart.
Rodica: Yes.
David: So Liviu uh, uh, Rodica noticed you, when, when did you notice her? When did you go hmm?
Liviu: Um, my destiny was, uh, like that. I was born in, uh, God sent me here, uh, at school on this earth, uh, through, um, a poor family in a village. They were farmers, but believers. So life was wonderful in, uh, my parents' home. Wonderful in the countryside, animals, Bible, church, waters, whatever. But then communism came and confiscated everything, uh, that, uh, my parents had.
Land, animals, so on. So they came to town to give us education. We are three children. Uh, because there in the countryside they had nothing to give us as parents. Because communism, confiscated, uh, those things. Uh, so here in town, uh, I went with them, uh, at church, uh, up to about, uh, the age of 15.
And then I started to, to go in, in the world and search for happiness. And I tried to find it, uh, in all the garbages that, uh, the world offers and step by step, I understood that I cannot find happiness, uh, in, in these things. So I received Christ in my heart when I was, uh, about 20 years old.
And then, uh, I started to, to be serious with God. Um, up to that moment. I graduated, uh, the schools of art, the high school, and some small other, uh, art school for children. Uh, so I, I, I was a kind of artist, uh, in information, but, uh, also I became a Christian. So from that moment on, I, I started to study the Bible and I had the privilege to, to, be invited, uh, by these, uh, navigators. That prevention, uh, that helped me immensely. Immensely. My, they helped me to form a worldview to understand the values in life, so on. So one of the activity that I was making at that, uh, young age was to have Bible studies with, uh, young, uh, people with singles, uh, about pre, uh, marital, uh, stuff, things.
Tara: Okay.
Liviu: So there were studies how to behave before you are married, and then how to behave, what to do to, to get married. And now I got to your question. Uh, they, um, in, in my church, uh, they came different, uh, young people from all over, uh, town, including a very sharp young girl named Rodica. I, I heard about her quite, quite a bit.
But then because I, I was making a kind of a dialogue, uh, with, with the people more than to preach to them, you know, we were studying some passages, but I asked them for interpretation of those texts. And guess what, out of all of those, somebody was getting up with brilliant answers. And then I, I said, look, look, there, there is something there.
You know? So I kept, um, uh, watching her, uh, and I, I enjoyed her more and more, you know? Uh, before making those, uh, studies, uh, I made a profile of a person that I would like to marry.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay.
Liviu: That profile had 40 characteristics.
Tara: Oh,
David: 40?
Tara: Do you still have that list?
Liviu: I think I do, somewhere.
David: We, we could put it up on the, on the website to help other people kinda suggest lists.
So you had a list-
Rodica: You want people never to get married?
Liviu: But here, you know, uh, I, I will, uh, leave something to the, to the non-married people that is even better, more helpful than that 40 points list. The fact that reading and, and working on those characteristics at, at a moment I said, hey, are you stupid, or what? Do you have all those 40 characteristics that you are waiting for?
So I reduced all of those to four.
David: To four, okay.
Tara: Okay, that sounds more realistic. So you realized that was kind of unattainable list if you included yourself in there.
Liviu: So, uh, through those four I was watching the girls around, you know? The first one to be, uh, was to be a Christian.
David: Okay.
Liviu: And they were beautiful girls around, you know, beautiful. But they were not believers, so I didn't pay any attention to them because I wanted to marry a, a believer.
David: Yep.
Liviu: So I was watching, uh, Rodica through these four characteristics. Uh, another one was, uh, to love people. To, to serve people, to, to, to do something for others. So, uh, I propose her once to meet in a restaurant.
Uh, and, uh, I ask, uh, if she wants to, to be my friend. And in that moment, you, you say, Rodica, what happened to you? .
Rodica: Well, let, let, let me come back to your study when you, you organized that study. I went there and it was very interesting. And, uh, uh, I was a third year student and, uh, I was very busy and I had two bible study groups with girls and so on.
So I was like, you know, why am I going there? You know? And I realized that actually I like the guy. And there was a long line. So everybody was talking about him, you know, he was like a very eligible bachelor. He was around 29.
David: Okay.
Rodica: And I was like, I'm not gonna stand in that line. I stopped going.
David: Oh!
Rodica: I just stopped going there, and I, I said, fine.
I turned, and I, I minded my own business, you know? But then he arranged somehow, okay, let's make a group to discuss and to go in a camp, and let's talk about these issues, if you wanna talk about this subject. So, when, when, when he, he said that he would like us to be friends more than friends, you know, so that he's very serious about it.
You know, I, I was like. He said that I turned white and I, I, I slipped in my chair.
Tara: So you were, you were shocked.
Liviu: Yeah, she,
Rodica: It was completely unexpected.
Liviu: She almost got under the table.
David: Just slide right down.
Liviu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rodica: It was completely, uh, unexpected. Now if I, if I, in hindsight, if I look back, you know, I should have kept my cool and grill him a little bit. Kind of, he kind of took it, took it up to his hand, you know, that I was so impressed.
Tara: Right, right.
Rodica: That, that was, that was 1st of March, uh, '84, and by January '85 we were married. And that's the short version.
David: Wow. So it once, once you had, uh, kind of stated your intentions, it didn't take long to get married.
Rodica: Well, it didn't, it didn't because uh, first of all, at that time, people were getting married.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: Uh, now they kind of, uh, marriage is something that uh, they contemplate from a distance for a long time. Uh, but it was also was sort of, um, you know, what are we expecting? I mean, I never planned to marry that young. I was 24 when, when we married, um, I would've waited more, but he was around 30.
And at that time, that was, we were among what these days would be, 35 to 40.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: You know, so a lot has changed, but at that time, at 29, him not being married was a big thing, you know? So, uh, we kind of said, okay, I don't know what, what else can we expect? You know? Um, and, and in a way, in a way, I think, uh, uh, it's very helpful when, um, the partner comes from a similar family with yours.
You have a similar background. Um, we were known in the community, both my family and his family. So that, that kind of helps. It's not like you take somebody, uh, you know, out of nowhere that you meet, uh, on a flight to Tokyo, you know. So, uh, so, uh, yeah, I think it made, it made sense. Now, I, I don't know if this had any kind of influence on our children, but our children, uh, two out of three children married like, our boys, married like this, and one married at 21 and one at 22. Oh, wow. And um, um, so, uh, you know, they grew up with this idea that marriage and, and, you know, relationship is serious. And when they found the girl that, that, you know, they felt that it's the right person, they just said, okay, that's it. They married and they are really happy.
All of them, you know, our daughter, she married with somebody that came from another, um, um, type of background, you know, but uh, even in their case, they didn't wait too much. And uh, yeah, I think things are changing now a lot.
Tara: Yes, they are. And people, people are waiting longer.
Rodica: Mm-hmm.
Liviu: You know why I was waiting long, uh, because, uh, 29, it, it was, uh, long time for, for that time.
Um, I, I, uh, share with you the fact that, uh, the Lord Jesus came in my life. Uh, and then I started to, to become serious with him. So I, uh, I kept asking him, uh, what do you want to do with my, with me, with my life? Uh, and one of the main questions was, uh, Lord, uh, would you want me to remain single? You want me serve you in this way?
I don't know, as an artist or as a priest or whatever. Uh, every year, I, I went in, uh, in the mountains in the days of, of my, uh, conversion and my baptism. I, I went alone in the mountains and stay for days there and talk with God. And year by year I ask him, you want me single or you, you want me married?
So that is, uh, how it went year after year. I felt I can be single. Uh, and, and, and I tried that. But then the sexual pressure grew up so much in me. Then, uh, I understood from, from that text from the Bible that says, uh, if you burn, get married.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah.
Liviu: If not that burn will, uh, will take you to, to sin.
So, um, then I understood, uh,, discovering this gift, this joy of, uh, sexuality in this desire of sexuality in me and, and the power, it was very powerful, I, I, I couldn't postpone it anymore in order to remain, uh, holy. Remain clean. So I said, okay, I see that you gave me the gift of marriage, not the gift of singleness.
Who is the girl?
David: And Liviu, I love, I love how you talk about that in terms of gift of singleness and gift of marriage, that it's not one over the other, but both are gifts and it's about awareness of kinda what God has for you, in which gift is he giving? Which-
Liviu: That is why I was waiting to understand what gift he gave me.
Because in 1 Corinthians 7, uh, God tells us that both of them are gifts.
David: Yeah.
Liviu: So I was waiting and then I understood that God gave me the gift of marriage and uh, here is Rodica, for 38-
Tara: Yeah. So it sounds like when you invited her to that meal, you already had the future in mind. You were already thinking seriously.
Rodica: Oh, yeah. He was very serious. My, my sisters-in-law, his sister and his brother's wife later told me that about the week before March 1st, we were at a wedding. And one told to the other, come, I'll show you Liviu's future wife.
Tara: Oh!
Rodica: So they knew before I knew.
Liviu: I didn't tell her, I was searching, talking with people, asking for advice, so on, from my family, from friends first I-
Rodica: that
David: Yes.
Liviu: I was, uh, I was searching, uh, that was very important for, for me. I was searching to find out if she has a, uh, boyfriend.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
David: Oh.
Liviu: That is why I didn't tell her anything about my feeling.
Rodica: Talk with my ex!
Liviu: And search, uh, ask questions around does Rodica have a boyfriend? Because if she would have, I wouldn't tell her anything. I would let her follow her destiny, you know? But when I found out that she's single, I was very happy.
David: Yes.
Tara: Yes, and we heard that there was a line of, of women who would've been interested in you, but did you have the assurance that when you met her and professed these feelings that she would return them?
Did you feel confident that she'd feel the same way?
Liviu: Dear, first, this is between God and Me, not between me and Rodica.
Rodica: And you are very presumptious.
Liviu: Let me tell you, please, the other two.
David: Yes. Yes. So we, we have the first two in terms of service and loving Jesus.
Rodica: That, watch out how you say the fourth one, okay?
David: I, I have an idea of what the fourth one might be, so...
Liviu: But I mentioned the other two just because, uh, uh, Rodika now is a proof after 30 years that she, she's excellent on all of those
David: Okay. So love Jesus, serve others.
Liviu: Be, uh, intelligent. But what I mean through that is, um, uh, to have that, uh, kind, uh, of capacity to communicate with me, you know? Mm-hmm. . Cause I had before a, a girlfriend that was very intelligent. A beautiful, she was beautiful. That is why I, I,
Rodica: Yeah, that's the fourth one.
Liviu: But she, she, she wouldn't pray with me. Wouldn't communicate deep things. We were sitting one beside others. I kissed her. I enjoy her puppy. I like her, but no communication. So the third one was to, to have a level of intelligence that I have in order to, to communicate about, uh, everything.
And this is why when we were friends, we were talking hours and hours every day. Uh, and then when the day was gone, uh, uh, I, I, I, uh, got her home. And then when I got home, I, I called her and talk again for a few hours during the night. Because she,
Rodica: That's a sign that,
Tara: Yeah,
David: That is a sign.
Tara: That's a good sign.
Liviu: Yeah. And, uh, the fourth one, uh, because before when I was very holy singing, I served God, I had the idea that I understand for myself is that God wants, uh, us to enjoy life. God gave us a live here honors in order to be happy.
So, I, I was searching for somebody that I would like to make sex with.
David: Yes. And, and we heard about you guys after marriage, got the bedroom in the kind of a spiritual retreat cabin. So that one must, that one must go okay.
Rodica: I think we can go onto the next topic. I'm ready to go to the next topic.
David: As a, as a therapist, I have a few questions about your sex life.
Tara: I don't,
David: Tara's gonna take the conversation a different direction.
Tara: Right, I don't think your children wanna hear that.
Rodica: No, they don't. No, no, no.
Liviu: I think a question raised in my mind, why, why do you want the discussion to go farther than then we will finish soon?
Rodica: No.
Tara: I, I see what you did there.
Rodica: Hopefully you can edit.
David: Yes. We, we, we can edit things out. We're not going to.
Tara: Because these kinds of stories are so helpful for some of the younger people to learn from, including that sex can be a really important part of a marriage relationship, you know?
David: And that kind of mental communion and physical communion are both really important.
Liviu: Yeah. Um, the christian that still wants to be super, uh, super holy, uh, then they, they neglect, uh, the beauties that God created.
David: Yep.
Liviu: Is God, sex is God's invention. It's something absolutely phenomenal in, in that frame that got created in, in marriage relationship. Not outside, not before, uh, back there. It's something splendid.
David: Well, let's talk about that frame of marriage. So you noticed each other, you've kind of, uh, spent some time together and Rodica you went from kind of, uh, that first date to six months later you're married. Uh, what was the process like?
Tara: Was it six months or was it a year? Was a year and a half.
Rodica: About about nine months.
David: Nine months.
Rodica: About six months until he proposed
David: I'm a therapist. Math isn't my thing, so...
Tara: Yeah and you sent us some beautiful photos in the snow of your wedding, so we'd love to hear about, and it sound, I, I just wanted to touch a little bit on what Liviu said about kind of asking family and friends. We've heard that in a lot of stories, and for us, it was important that our family and friends who we trusted weighed in on agreeing that this was a good match. And I, I think that's important because the people who we love know us well and can point out sometimes if, if there might be some red flags or... it sounds like your community was in support of this relationship.
Rodica: Oh, yes, definitely. And, uh, I think you are right. It's very important because, um, when you, when you fall in love, then you really fall and you don't see uh, very clearly. So to have somebody that, that sees more clearly and can, can help you to see signals, um, um, it's, it's really important. And, uh, I think that love can, can overcome a multitude of difficulties.
Even like, let's say you, like you said, uh, um, you marry somebody with special needs. Um, you can, if, if, if you love the other person, you can overcome all kinds of, uh, uh, difficulties. And, you know, nobody guarantees that even if you are completely healthy, you will stay healthy. So that's, I, I keep saying that marriage never comes with a warranty um,
Tara: Or instructions.
Rodica: Or instructions. Yeah. Yeah. At least instructions if we had. Um, so, uh, uh, that is helpful. Um, at first, after we married, I remember we didn't meet that often because we were kind of very visible both of us. Uh, he was a kind of a freelancer at that time. Stone, freelance, uh, uh, sculptor, stone cutter.
Uh, and I was a student and, uh, I remember we would put out our agendas and meet every three weeks or something. But like, uh, like earlier you said we, we talked a lot. We communicated a lot. Um, and then, um, yeah. By September we decided that, that we wanna go together to live together. To live together in terms of, you know, getting married and, having a life together, but as a stone pattern.
And this is, uh, you know, a few stories from, from the times and from cultural stories. Uh, November 1st is the, in our area called the Day of the Dead. It's the day when within the, the Orthodox tradition, um, people go and visit, cemetery. And um, uh, you know, I think in Mexico they also have this Day of the Dead.
Um, and, and in our area in Transylvania is very specific and, uh, you always lit candles, so from the distance you can see the cemetery all lit, and sometimes the priests have liturgies for the remembrance of, uh, the deceased and so on. So Liviu as a stone cutter, who, who was making funeral stones, was always very busy.
And he made the salary for a year, within the time of about, uh, three months. So he was very, very busy. And, it's interesting that, we decided to have, um, the engagement on, uh, November after, so November 17, after, uh, Day of the Dead. So I spent a lot of time with him in the studio and I started to help him with, stone cutting stuff.
Um, and then, we, we said, well, what do we wait? Okay, it's first time I, usually weddings are in the summer, but we said, are we going to wait until the summer? So we looked in the calendar and we decided for January 13th, because it was the first Sunday after Christmas, um, fast. Now we are, uh, we come from an evangelical community, but a lot of our relatives are Orthodox, and we felt that it is a respect that you show them not to make the wedding during fasting times, because then they would not be able to attend the wedding or to eat or whatever, you know. So, uh, this is why we, we planned it for January. And now the nice part when he told, uh, uh, our pastor, uh, what they would do in church would be that they introduce the young couple, that they are engaged and then, um, announce when the wedding is going to be.
So when, uh, he talked with the pastor, he told him that, uh, he, we're going to have the wedding in the winter and we never knew anyone else to have the wedding in the winter. And he said, I even hope and pray to God that there will be snow and I will be able to have sledges with horses. Now that was at a time when, for four years it rained at Christmas.
Normally in Romania we had good winters, but it just happened that the previous four years we didn't have snow almost at all. So when, uh, the pastor introduced us, he, he kind of made fun and he said, well, and you even have the faith that he's going to have snow at his wedding. Ha ha ha.
In December, he already talked with a community with a village next to Cluj, and he, uh, reserved, uh, six, sledges with horses and everything. And the week before the wedding, it snowed so bad, that they stopped all cars from, so all the cars were stopped from driving only buses and taxis could drive.
Tara: Wow.
Rodica: That was also a way of, you know, saving fuel, uh, at that time, for, for communist because of the shortages. But we had sledges, you know, so uh, when we got out of the church they were there the horses and there are people that after 30 years, they say they still hear the bells. And when we were coming out, the, the horses were entering and they wouldn't understand what's, what was going on.
It was like a fairy tale. Now you probably can see in the picture that it's like, in Dr. Zhivago, you know, that kind of,
Tara: That's exactly what I said when I saw the picture, it reminded me of.
Rodica: Can you guess the temperature during the day?
David: Uh, in Fahrenheit or Celsius? I would say zero Celsius?
Tara: It had to be cold because you have a blanket around and you're cuddled up.
Except you just are in, in love with your groom.
Rodica: Minus 22-
David: What?
Rodica: Minus 22 Celsius.
David: Oh!
Tara: No.
Rodica: And that night it was minus 33, which is minus 27 Fahrenheit.
David: Oh.
Tara: Wow.
David: It's, it's,
Rodica: So, that was our wedding day
David: It's good, it's good that Liu had a fire burning in him that night that kept you both warm.
Rodica: It was amazing. His father had this idea, I didn't know, his father had the idea to heat some bricks, and then he covered them in, in, you know, some, uh, material and I had them at my feet, otherwise I would've frozen.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: But my only after the wedding, I saw that the sh- the soles of my shoes got melted.
Tara: He had them too hot.
Rodica: Well, I didn't feel they were hot, you know, but enough to, to get the melting. But it, it, it was absolutely, uh, uh, an amazing day, you know?
And, uh, uh, at the same time, it was a disaster for our guests, who had such problems getting home. One went home and by the time he got there, all his, uh, uh, plumbing, uh, uh, got, uh,
David: Yeah, the pipes were frozen?
Rodica: My relatives from the countryside went home and their pig was dying.
David: Oh, no!
Rodica: So everybody had some kind of event.
So it was a memorable wedding, let me put it that way. And, uh, not long ago when we had a very, very cold winter, we have sometimes about a week of very cold, they said It hasn't been that cold since January, 1985. And I'm like, yeah,
David: yeah, we re- we remember those times.
David: So I, I wanna fast forward. I know Rotica, we talked about jumping around.
So we're at the wedding. I, I wanna jump around cuz you all are. Now, is it fair to say in the second, uh, second half of life, is that, uh, is that a fair statement?
Rodica: Uh, probably the last third.
David: Okay. The last third. I was, I was trying to be nice, but, uh, what does, what does marriage look like in the second half or the last third of life?
How is it similar? How is it different? Cuz we're talking about some of this romantic and um, tingly feeling parts, and we all know that have been married for a long time, that shifts. Uh, so as you think about marriage now, 38 years in, uh, what are, what's similar and what's different? What are the, what are the unique challenges now that you couldn't even imagine then?
Rodica: I keep telling people that it's so much better. I wouldn't change for anything. I wouldn't go back. Um, and, and you were right, it's not in the same way, but I think in many ways it's better because remember, when you marry and you are young and you think you have the whole life ahead of you, you also have all the burden of the things to do ahead of you. Find a place in life, find a job to find significance to, um, um, gather property, to have a house, to have a car, to, uh, uh, all these come over you like, like, like a flood, and it is very hard to juggle. And that's where we start to fail. Um, either you invest too much in your profession and then you neglect the wife or the children, or you invest too much in the children and then neglect your husband or the other way.
Um, you chase too much the fact that you want a better house, a better, uh, neighborhood, a better uh, job. You are always running after something. Well, it comes an age when you stop running and you just start enjoying. And I feel that's where we are.
David: And how about for you Liviu?
Tara: That, that is so beautiful.
Rodica: Yeah. Well Liviu, how about you?
Liviu: Uh, what were, were you talking about here?
David: We're talking about getting older and not remembering all the difficulties earlier on in marriage and how we, how there's unique challenges.
Liviu: I didn't hear you well.
Tara: He's playing into you calling him old there, Van Dyke.
David: I know, I know. I'm in so much trouble next time we're together I can feel it already.
Liviu: Yeah. Um, talking about challenging challenge, um, maybe the biggest, uh, is the one to serve the partner not way to be served. In our marriage, uh, because both of us are, uh, alpha characters, you know, Rodica is a very strong person.
David: I wish people could see this. You just growled at the screen. It scared me a little bit.
Liviu: Rodica, please continue to talk. So, um, both of us are, are, uh, strong personalities. And, and God gave us different gifts, uh, but more, more than that um, our way of being, our temperament is very different. Uh, I tell you, and Rodica does not like, uh, me to say that, but she knows that it's true, that we are so different when we got married and discovered all of these differences, and have very hard times, very, very hard times.
So, it was kind of a third, uh, world war in, in, in our home, you know? So, um, I, I think very much that, if we, we, both of us wouldn't have God, uh, in our lives and the Holy Spirit to help us and God rules in marriage. So on, uh, I, I think we would have been divorced in a month or so. Something. Because we're,
Rodica: Well, let's not exaggerate.
David: And there's a personality difference.
Liviu: Yes, yes, dear. I, I obey you. One month and a half, according to my wife. Uh, so, uh, these kind of tensions continue for, for long. They continue even today, but not at, at that level. Why? Because one of the blessed moment in our lives, uh, as a couple was, uh, that moment, that period in which we understood that each one of us need God first more than we need the partner.
So in that moment, each one of us had that, uh, uh, attitude to let the partner free. Not to, uh, oblige him to do that, and that, and that, because this is what she or he, uh, had have to do. But to accept, uh, all, all the, the act of, uh, of the partner as a gift. Not, uh, as a necessary obligatory things to, correct things to, to do.
So from, from that moment on, and that happened many, many years ago, um, we enjoy one another much more because we don't, uh, expect things from the, from the other one. But what we received, it's joy, it's a gift and, and, uh, better try to serve the other one than to, to, uh, uh, expect things from, uh, her working.
Tara: That's a big shift.
David: That is a, it is a big shift. I hope we can hit that soon. Uh, cuz we tend to be a little bit, well, Tara does, tends to be a little alpha. I'm just kinda this chilled, relaxed.
Tara: Yeah.
David: Dude.
Liviu: I can see you.
Tara: We're, we're both first borns too and we're told that's not supposed to work.
Rodica: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm the youngest and Liviu is the third one in the family, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but, uh, I think one of, one of the things that, that I'm saying the same thing, but in other words.
I think in marriage everyone needs to get a life. And to be, to realize that you have to have your life to, to, to be you in relationship with the world and with God, and you have a partner and you have children. But they should not be the ones that are your purpose. Because if they are and something happens to them, then you are completely lost.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: Or if they are and they don't perform at the level you expect then you are doomed.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: And I think it took me about seven years because, you know, we already talked a little bit about the dynamic of Liviu was there up on a pedestal, the most eligible and so on, and uh, um, I was the, the chosen one, and,
Liviu: You were the one that took out the pedestal.
Rodica: And, and it took me seven years to get him off the pedestal.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: And I remember the day and I remember where I was and I remember crying like if he died because all of a sudden I said, this is not who I thought he is. At times when he was sincere in our fighting, you know, after he would admit that he's wrong or whatever, you know?
Liviu: Um, I used to say, uh, dear, uh, I am a donkey, a pig, and, uh, something else...
Rodica: And a dog.
Liviu: And a dog.
Rodica: Yeah. But, but, but no, I, I, I'm trying to say something else. Even if he would admit at times that it was his fault or whatever, I would still believe that I am at fault, you know. For me it was very hard to accept that this man whom I married is wrong, you know, to the level where I said, if one of us has to die, I should be the one to die because he would be so much better for the family, so much better for the children, you know?
So it took me about seven years, and that is the word, when, when, when I felt that I need to take him off the pedestal and to say, you are only a human, and the bad one at times. I'm not perfect, but I never thought I was perfect, you know? So I kind of needed to get to the level where to pick myself up, and he doesn't really remember that, but when we married, I was so much leaving, leaning myself on him that he would be the one who keeps the papers, he had the, uh, identity card if we go anywhere. Now ask him...
Tara: Who has it now?
Rodica: Who has it now?
Liviu: Who drives the car, always the man or the woman? The woman. Who orders all the holidays, the tickets, plane tickets, everything? The woman.
Rodica: So, so what I, what I'm saying, it, it just happened that this was our dynamic. Other people have other dynamics.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: Um, you know, when we married, we did that Briggs test and uh, we were the perfect opposite at all four.
Tara: Oh.
David: Oh, wow. That's impressive.
Rodica: It's, it's impressive. And not only that, we were complete opposite, but when they talk about matching this and this, matching these two. I remember like it was today and we were only one year married, they say in the unfortunate case, when a couple with this characteristic gets together, they're gonna be on a big surprise.
And it was true.
David: Yeah.
Tara: No wonder it was almost World War III. That makes sense.
Rodica: Yes. Yes. And, and you see all the dating didn't help. It doesn't help to, to realize the implications of being so different or even being different because you only see the things that you want to see or that you like, you know?
I have no idea what it means to live with an artist. Actually, I didn't have an idea if he's gonna be an artist. He didn't know either. See, well, what the problem is, you don't really know. And I was studying engineering and he had no idea about anything about the mind of an engineer. And, and how, uh, uh, frustrated an engineer can be in the presence of an artist who is completely, uh, practical and in this, uh, high sphere, you know.
So, uh, I think I, this is where love helps, because if it's not love, and also if it's not God,
David: Yeah.
Rodica: And then if it's not the commitment and the fact that you said, okay, I said, for better and foremost, I'm gonna keep going, you know?
Tara: Yeah.
Rodica: Um, it's, it's really hard to, to stay with what you discover.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: So after, and you know, we, we were normal people. I mean, uh, I'm, I'm not talking here about scenes or uh, uh, just personalities, you know? Yeah.
David: And I think Rodica, the things that you bring up, that commitment to something other than I, we talk about this and I playfully kind of touch on this with Tara of like, when I retire, I want her to be my hobby.
And she's like,
Tara: I say, no, nope, no.
David: She's like, retirement for you is death. Uh, and, but it's that like, it should never be that my, my satisfaction, my, my completeness is her or her responsibility. There's this kind of idea of we're in this together for something bigger than just meeting each other's needs.
But that's a hard thing because the, the media, I mean, you know, this, the media is all about find your other half, find the person that completes you. Not that you're a whole person, that you enter into the relationship, but you're looking for a completion. Uh, I think that's a, that's a lie that doesn't set us up for success.
And then the second piece that I know about you both and just hearing as we're listening, uh, the curiosity that you might be completely different on the Myers Briggs test. Uh, but the thing that is, uh, unequivocal is that you both are curious. You're curious about the life of the mind. You're curious about nature.
You're curious about God, you're curious about all, I mean, Liviu, about the senses. I can still remember coming to your house and I couldn't get inside for the meal because you wanted me to smell and experience this quince, which I had no idea what a quince was. You're like, just smell this, David. And I'm like, I think I have a little bit more of an engineering brain. I'm like, I don't know what's happening here, and I'm like, oh yeah, it's, it, it smells.
Tara: It's a fruit, yes?
David: You're like, but no, no, no. Smell it. What does it smell like? And I had no idea what.
Rodica: He was so excited that my roast was getting cold.
Tara: That's right. Well, and and you've made it very clear, and we know this about you, that you both, you, you have a lot of differences and you've found your own areas of, um, expertise and things that you study, and we think that's really beautiful that you have your separate things and that you have your, your things in common as well.
And so we're wondering, just a question, as you lived this many years together, what are some ways that you intentionally find connection? Um, because I know there's many different things that you do and that it, we can, we see a lot of couples start to live parallel lives as well, where they do have their separate things, but they become just living as roommates, sort of with their separate interests.
How do you find that connection with each other?
Rodica: Yeah. I, I wanted to mention here, you know, something very, um, interesting. You know, when I, when I look at the screen, I see you two together and we are in separate rooms each one in, uh, in, uh, his room. Um, next to the, to the, to that moment of understanding that, that I need to get him off the pedestal and to get him on the ground at the same level with me.
And he kind of accepted it, you know. Uh, the other thing that I realized and I kind of was forced to do, was to stop trying to be the co-pilot as we were trained. We were taught that the wife is the co-pilot. So for him, for Liviu, that was very clear. Nice. I'm gonna have a co-pilot, so you type this for me, you do this for me.
Oh, you've learned the graphic design. You do this poster, you, you do this. You, oh, you are gonna be my art manager, you know? And because we were so different and I was trying to work with him on the things he needs, and he was behaving like, like the most obnoxious artist you can imagine. It came a moment when I said, I had to say, now you have to choose, you either have a wife, a mother to your children, uh, or you have a secretary.
I cannot do, and I refuse to do all of them. Not to mention, uh, housewife, you know, washing, cleaning, cooking, shopping, uh, everything, you know. So that was the first moment, and I don't think he got over it until now. Uh, I know he accepted much better than he did in the beginning, but there was a moment when I, I had to say no.
Hmm. Just because. , I couldn't do all these things for him. And also because now looking in hindsight, I, I felt the need to be my own and do my own things. Uh, I, here I would mention something that might be, uh, useful for your, for your listeners. Uh, I come from a family where my mother was a working mom. My mother was a medical doctor.
She had a career. Um, and all the life I grew up with this, it was a normal thing for my parents to come to work at four o'clock, spend an hour together, eat, um, talk, drink their coffee, and then each went on their ways. My mother mostly with housework, my father with his hobbies, um, choir music and so on. Liviu comes from a family where his mother was a homemaker, so our expectations were very different.
You know, he didn't know how a woman like my mother lives, or how I see marriage or how he sees marriage, and we didn't know how to talk about these things, you know? But the moment he realized that that's important for me and that we need to put an end to these kind of dynamics, he started to support me in my education in ways that people around us wouldn't understand, or maybe they judged.
I went back to the States by myself for three months to finish my master tw- two years in a row, three months at a time. That was in the early '90s, '92 and '93, and he stayed home with a six year old and an eight year old for three months, two years in a row until I got my degree. Now having a master degree from the States in the '90s.
You know, I didn't know anyone before me, so I was kind of a pioneer in that way. And I was very grateful and I realized that God is offering me something very special. And I kept asking, why? Why? What do you want with my life that you opened these doors for me? You know? And from then on we developed such a dynamic where he supported me a step to develop, and then I said, okay, now I take over the main responsibilities and you do a step. And then he would have a big project, um, uh, that took him a year. Now he didn't leave home, but it's like, you know, I, I, I keep the fort, and you do that. And then he would say, okay, now that I finished that, now you finish your PhD and I'll keep the fort.
Now, that didn't mean that he started cooking or cleaning or whatever, but it was enough to take the burden of me and to support me to do that thing. And probably it is the, the, the thing that helped us extraordinarily because no matter how much I, I, I was able to develop, he pushed me further and then it just happened because I went into the direction of art that what I developed helped him professionally.
So he started to, to, uh, pick on my knowledge, uh, about technologies that can be used in art, and he started to use them in his, uh, work, and he's very curious. And, and some years ago I took again, the Myers Briggs test, and we are not where we were.
David: Interesting.
Rodica: And we had this joke. We said, if, if I wanna change you and you wanna change me, what happens if we both succeed? And we go this way?
Tara: Yes.
Rodica: And I think now we are, you know, somewhere across the lines, he's the more extrovert than I am. Um, he's the, he's much more technical and I started to learn to be more, um, intuitive and to, to, to more passive and to think, you know, so we can see how we change each other and we are who we are because of each other these days.
David: Mm-hmm.
Liviu: Or kind of count them, you know, helping one another to, to do and to be, uh, what she or, uh, Rodi or myself wanted to be. Um, so, what we learned about marriage is to give space, uh, to the partner and to encourage and help him be what, uh, the partner wants to be in front of God, and so on. So we succeeded in, in that very much.
But now I see what, what you guys do, in fact, you do therapy with us now.
Tara: What's that?
Liviu: The, the way you ask questions and those questions that you ask are very therapeutic, because this last question, uh, how giving freedom one to the other one, uh, does not bring the risk of separating us. Getting a bar, you know? Uh, and, and you are right. This, we, we are very fine. We are fine. We are fine. We see one another almost daily.
David: You use humor very well?
Tara: Yes.
Liviu: Rodica continues to support me immensely. She lets me stay in my studio long, long. I ca- I come home in the night because I work hard. I dunno how much more I will be able to work physically, so, uh, Rodica su- supports me to, to, uh, use this energy I have now and produce now because I am getting, uh, close to, to be 70 years old in two years and a half.
So, so, uh, Rodica gives me space, uh, and helps me do, uh, my dreams. But you are right, Tara. Uh, the risk is there to, to give, uh, too much space to, to the partner. So here we need to be very careful not to, to give too much, uh, respect to the other.
Tara: Yes. Well, we,
Rodica: No, I think that there's never too much respect, but, but here we're very different.
Again, also because of the, the, the kind of, uh, background we come from, uh, in my family, I do not remember hugging or kissing each other, other than if, if it was somebody's birthday , or at New Year's Eve, you know, we were a family that was, and my parents had an absolutely wonderful relationship. Never saw them fighting 50 years married, um, very calm. Uh, we, we never said to each other, I love you, but we all knew that is there, you know, so it was a family that did not talk affection, but there was a lot of respect and a really modern model marriage. In his family, when we married, I realized that every time they met, they kissed, um, that, uh, they talk much more and they express feelings and I was not comfortable.
And even now I'm not. Sometimes I feel that he's suffocating me, you know? And he, he has the need, you know, and he, he called me that, I, I wake up in the morning and I have all this in my head and I make my coffee and he's like, hey, you didn't even stop to my, uh, room to say hi to his, uh, where he's now in his studio.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: Um, and I'm like, I didn't think this morning my parents got out the door, you know, at six o'clock in the morning, nobody stayed to... you know. So there's a difference there.
Tara: Yeah.
Rodica: But I agree with him and I, I can remember the moment when, when we started to drift apart, and when I, I realized that there is a problem.
So one of the things, I don't know what he's doing, but, but one of the things that, that I started to do was to, uh, accept more activities that engage us together. He's invited, uh, in another town for an exhibition, and I say, yeah, I come, I'll drive you, I'll drive you there. I have no curiosity of, you know, spending, uh, evenings with all those artists, because my artist is enough for me.
Tara: One is enough.
Rodica: But I do enjoy driving. So five hours drive and then we stop and then we talk and, and we did more and more of that. Now we are at the level where maybe we do it every month or every two months, some kind of activity together, we are going to go back to ELF, um, in May.
One of the reasons we, we, uh, we go is that that's something that we can do together.
Tara: Together, yes.
Rodica: We'll come to Wheaton. We went last, two years ago to Wheaton. You know, uh, those are things that intentionally we put in our calendar to do together.
Tara: Yeah.
David: Yeah. There's-
Rodica: Now one of the things that he does not like to do and he does not know how to do, and that was my biggest frustration, is life, in life is holiday. For him, holiday is to lock him in the studio and throw the key.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: So I had all the dreams of Greek islands, tropical, uh, beaches, um, city breaks that I could not do, and he would not want to come with me, you know? And we are at the point where I said, you know what? I'm gonna go by myself and I think it's okay if you don't wanna come.
It's okay, I'm not gonna insist anymore. You know? So, last summer I went to Turkey, uh, the tour of the, uh, apocalypse churches.
David: Oh yeah.
Rodica: And I kept sending him pictures of all those beautiful stones and old towns. So now probably I'm, I, I, I'll convince him to come with me on the next, uh, trip.
So that these are things that we are still, we still have to work on.
David: Yeah.
Rodica: How to do holiday together for, for review, working is holiday.
David: But I think-
Rodica: Really. And I realize that it really makes him happy.
David: And I think it's finding that balance, right? And this is the challenge I think for every couple of, we're looking for one answer and it's gonna be about what's the best fit.
And I think what I hear you both saying is there's this space for the person to grow, but you don't want so much space it's experienced as abandonment. Uh, so there's that, I think there's that line between how do I give you space and build you up? And then
Tara: Yes.
David: But also how am I showing up?
Tara: And still having fun together?
And I can see that you still make each other laugh and you, and you still make time to do things together, and that, that's beautiful.
David: And you're, you both are participating in the thing that keeps us together. And it's doing, it's doing this, it's the only time we're sitting next to each other is basically doing the podcast.
So every Thursday you know where we are and we're, we're enjoying inviting others into our relationship and being able to share in relationship, because I know
Tara: and learning from others.
David: I'm learning a ton of kind of what I need to be thinking about in this, uh, third phase of marriage.
Rodica: Yeah. And I think it's great what you're doing.
You're, you are helping other people, um, it's very interesting what you're doing and we're very grateful that you, you, you chose us to be part of your project.
Tara: We're grateful that you took the time because really this is just an excuse for us to spend time with you.
David: Yeah.
Tara: And, and hearing your story is just, I think it's gonna touch a lot of people.
I learned a lot and I, I'd love to talk a few more hours.
